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Yet another partial “solution” : gearing, cool rewards, PvE-PvP transitions, borrowed powers, etc
Disclaimer 2 : It is not the kind of low-effort post I do every week and it really took me a lot of preparation, hours of discussions on this sub and tons of YouTube videos watched. Please don’t downvote before at least reading me. I don’t care about the karma but I care about the visibility of this post. All I want is to initiate a constructed discussion with realistic goals. Okay, here goes…
IV/ Detailed system
It is a widely shared idea that PvP has been in a declining state since Legion. With SL just around the corner, we can hope for better changes. But what’s next ? Here’s my take on a blizzardable system, that is, a system that shouldn’t be too conflictual with Blizzard’s philosophy. This system covers a handful of mechanics, including gearing, rewards, borrowed powers, etc.. It is heavily inspired by the WoW systems I experienced so far, but I like to think it is NOT regressive.
I. Defining rules to make this model a little more realistic
Before I start detailing this system I must precise that it was specifically designed to abide to a set of rules that Blizzard has already defined through blue posts, interviews or rules that just seem to be the new norms. These rules are the following :
- "You should be able to play all type of content, whatever the source of your gear is"
- PvP stats are "not an option in the current state of the game"
- Gear should matter for the sake of the “MMO RPG feeling"
- Disabling borrowed powers (including trinkets) is "last resort"
II. Principal issues with PvP
The current system comes with multiple issues. This suggestion is an attempt at resolving the following :
|Issue||Source||Notes about the possible fixes|
|1. PvP is not engaging for newbies, casuals and returning players||The weight of borrowed powers and gear is too big, especially since the removal of scaling. The timegates and amount of grinding make it impossible to catch-up||Do NOT put monotone scaling back (like BfA and Legionsee important note\)), even though it seems like a fix. Stick to rule 3|
|2. Gearing up for PvP is easier through PvE content, even before reaching arena content||Mythic+ dungeons are a well-defined path for gearing, but there are no equivalent PvP alternative||BGs, or another form of PvP content should provide a full, realistic gearing path until reaching arena.|
|3. Gearing up in PvE might be more efficient even after reaching arena content||PvP gear is locked behind ranking and PvE is a workaround.|
|4. The progression of borrowed powers is almost exclusively PvE-related||Natural design of borrowed powers||This doesn’t really need to be fixed, but it definitely needs to be mentioned. The PvP community can understand that borrowed powers are part of the core of an expansion. The point is, the amount of PvE content required to be competitive is already quite high.|
|5. Some people want two separate progressions for PvE and PvP and some people want the gear to matter in every aspect of the game because they spent a lot of time optimizing it.|
|6. The PvP participation is way lower than the PvE participation||“But wow is a pve game” is the weakest argument ever. First because historically, wow an extremely competitive game. Second it makes much more sense to argue that the PvP participation is now lower because the PvP aspect isn’t as balanced as the PvE aspect of the game is.||With little tuning, PvP could be engaging again, for all types of players, starting by solving problem 1.|
In BfA, pvp scaling used to adjust your damage based on you & your target’s level and ilvl. AFAIK, in Legion, pvp scaling used to scale your total of statistics, according to your ilvl, in order to reduce the power difference between the max ilvl and the min ilvl. It is often miscalled as “templates” : templates were used alongside scaling to redistribute your statistics regardless of your gear.
To put it simply, strictly monotone scaling means that the output value (once scaled) has only one possible input value (the value to be scaled). It is opposed to WoD scaling or scaling “by tiers” applied to WoD PvP gear.
At this point, if you’re wondering wtf I mean by scaling in WoD, I need to remind you that PvP gear had two ilvls : one was applied in PvP situations and the other one was applied in PvE situations. The ilvl would change from one situation to another and the statistics on your gear would scale accordingly. I know the naming might be a little confusing but it’s important for the following.
III. A little bit of context (edited/truncated) :
The amount of reading and discussing I did on Reddit made me realize that the WoW community is cleaved. There’s a PvP vs PvE mindset. I’ll argue that this has always existed since I started playing MoP. Despite the last two expansions looking like an attempt at reuniting PvE and PvP by introducing global gear (gear being relevant in all time of content), it seems the cleavage is actually now even deeper. And the reason for this is very simple : the last expansions were frustrating, especially in terms of gearing.
There is a simple phenomenon that has occurred in WoW : it’s now a perpetual chase for gear. Before mythic+, the very goal of WoW was to earn cosmetics, titles, achievements, etc. To do that, the players would gear up and progress through the paths leading to these goals. But there’s another goal that we tend to miss out : the fun. And the fun is why we play BGs.
And there’s a second phenomenon, that I would like to argue. Now that the game is a chase for gear, getting geared up is kind of an end goal. Once you cleared the last mythic raid and get your full set of gear, part of the game is done, from a PvE perspective : getting your PvE gear is like, half the game is over. In PvP, however, gear is just a mean. Once you’re fully geared up from arena, you’ll probably try to push your rating. You’ll probably start queuing for BGs again, etc.
The culminating point of my thought process is that PvE and PvP do not consider gear equally as a goal, and therefore unifying gear creates issues.
Why does it have to be PvP vs PvE ? Why can’t it be PvP AND PvE ?
IV. My suggestions :
My suggestion is to separate the character's PvP power from its PvE power, and to allow two progression paths towards these goals. By "PvE power", I really just mean how powerful the character is in PvE situations, and by "PvP power" how he is in PvP situations. These are not any kind of statistics or mechanics.
Both paths will allow you to progress simultaneously towards both your PvE power and your PvP power, but with different paces. The first path is simply the current PvE path, i.e : mythic dungeons and raiding. It will allow you to progress at the same pace towards PvE and PvP powers. The second path, basically BGs, RBGs and arenas, will allow you to progress much faster towards PvP power but also slower towards PvE power.
In other words, you will be able to accelerate your PvP progression without impacting your PvE progression too much, and therefore these suggestions shouldn't break the current PvE system.
4-1 : Honor system
Disclaimer : honor level will be abbreviated hlvl. Honor level abbreviation example : Honor level 10 becomes h10.
First I need to introduce the new small changes to the honor system. If you look at the rewards from the current system, all you will see are Legion rewards. Do these rewards make sense in the current state of the PvE part of the game ? I don’t think so. I think the honor rewards should be seasonal, as this is one of the best ideas I found in this sub. And they should be related to the current state of WoW universe. Do you imagine exploring the shadowlands with your Val’Sharah unicorn ? Nope.
Since it is now seasonal, the best reward you get for a season is squished at a lower hlvl (i.e h50) and everything else is squished accordingly.
The rewards include :
- An M+0 ilvl gear set with unique models (or recolors of the same xpac, but unique from xpac to xpac) and a higher ilvl weapon, trinkets etc
- Conquest points
- Seasonal titles, i.e: Corrupted Alliance-toon-crusher (this is a joke, don’t put this title live!)
- WoD-like system up to m+15 ilvl (see part B).
- Mounts, pets, etc
- A feat of strength for reaching the last honor level this season and a super shiny completely collector mount
The past seasons rewards are available at the honor vendor, alongside the honor sets of all previous expansions, but Marks of honor now only drop from RBGs.
Honor points are not a currency anymore, they’re just your PvP progression towards the Legion-BfA honor system.
4-2 : WoD-inspired system, AKA “PvP buffs”
What I suggest is to take WoD-like scaling as the base of this system. By playing PvP content and accumulating honor and conquest points, you will “earn” WoD-like scaling, gradually.
Disclaimers : PvP ilvl will be called plvl from now on for the rest of this post.
For example, let’s say you have a full set of m+0 gear. When you reach h10, you will win a “new recruit” (or so) buff, increasing your plvl to m+6. When you reach h15, you get an “reliable comrade” (or so) buff, increasing your plvl to m+10.
You get the idea, the higher your hlvl, the better your PvP buff. There are four tiers, and these are comparable to m+6, m+10, m+13 and m+15. They can be tuned but the last one needs to be m+15.
Transitioning to the conquest system, you can get PvP buffs from earning conquest points, too. These are “Challenger”, “Rival”, “Duellist” and “Gladiator”. They do not rely on your ranking, only on the amount of conquest points you have earned so far. The upgrades scale between heroic raid ilvl and last 2 mythic raid bosses ilvl, only in pvp combat, once again.
i.e : comparing to the SL ilvls, “challenger” buff would give you 213ilvl, “rival” would be something around 220, “duellist” would be 226 and “gladiator” would give you 233.
Just to make it clear, once you get a better buff, it takes the place of the one you had previously. The buffs are permanent until they are replaced by a better one or until the season is over.
Good to note that :
- Your gear scales as soon as you enter a pvp situation, including duels and world-pvp. These buffs are to be seen by other players so they know who they’re up against in world-pvp.
- since honor level is account-wide your alts will benefit of the WoD-like system too, as long as you play BGs on your main.
- Conquest progression will be tied to your character, though, including the conquest buff.
- If you a piece of your gear has a higher ilvl than what the PvP buff grants, or if your gear has an ilvl inferior to m+0, then that piece will not be affected by the WoD-like system.
- The buffs aren’t tied to your gear, but to your character. This means the buff remains, even if you change your gear, unless its new ilvl doesn’t respect the conditions mentioned above.
4-3 : Conquest system
Okay now to the conquest system…
Note : RBGs for rated BGs (and not random BGs)
First off, there need to be a conquest vendor, just like in SL. Conquest is the only currency for gear that you get from PvP. You can get a small amount of conquest by playing BGs, passing some honor levels reward you with conquest too and more importantly, you get it from playing rated PvP.
You have a weekly conquest cap, i.e 500 conquest points. You can get these 500 conquest points from whichever source you want between skirmishes, BGs, Heroic BGs, RBGs and arena. You have a bonus cap of 600 conquest for playing rated arenas and a conquest cap of 600 more points for playing RBGs.
This means you have a maximum 1700 cap, but you must at least get 500 from RBGs and 500 from arenas to top it. Hopefully this will revive RBGs and hinder conquest grinding from random BGs. By the way, these numbers have to be tuned. The bonus arena and RBG caps can be increased with your rating.
- In MoP, it took a total of 15 weeks to purchase a whole set of conquest gear (without any rating modifier) or 13 weeks with RBGs.
- In WoD, it took a total of 17 weeks (without any rating modifier), or 14 weeks with RBGs. Heroic gear had the same iLvl as honor gear, but this system suggests that Heroic raiding gear would be slightly better than honor-buffed gear, as a comparison (it’s a 3 ilvl difference though). In WoD, there was also Mythic raiding, which was 15ilvl above honor gear, in pvp combat.
The PvE counterparts are Mythic raiding, Heroic raiding and the weekly chest. These are all timegated on a weekly basis, and Heroic gear should be obsolete as soon as you earn your “Challenger” buff. I suggest that earning the challenger buff takes 1 to 3 weeks.
You can spend your conquest points in order to improve your gear. There are 5 tiers of gear, based on your ranking. Again, there’s no PvP-specific gear. You just upgrade regular gear that can be earned from anywhere in the game :
- Unrated upgrades start at m+1 and can be upgraded up to +6 like it is now.
- Challenger upgrades go from +6 to +10
- Rival upgrades go from +10 to +15
- Duellist upgrades from +15 to heroic raid ilvl
- Gladiator gear can be upgraded from heroic to mythic raid ilvl.
Any gear can be upgraded through conquest, even when you earn it in mythic dungeons. The only conditions for that are that its ilvl is equal or superior to m+0, and inferior to m+15.
How much time it takes to get a full +15 gear from PvP should be about the same time as getting your “gladiator” buff.
At this point you’re probably upset because you can’t pick your statistics on gear. Don’t worry, keep reading. These 3 last parts were really tedious to write for me, I hope it makes sense.
To sum it all up, so far :
- The same gear can be upgraded towards two types of content simultaneously : PvE and PvP.
- Thanks to PvP buff (or WoD-like system), gear can easily be upgraded to m+15 plvl, without timegating, lowering the entry barriers for arena and RBG.
- Mythic raiding and the weekly chest are the only two PvE ways of having a PvP headstart, and these are timegated on a weekly basis
- You can upgrade regular gear based on your ranking to partially skip mythic+ or even heroic mode if you’re a gladiator, but you will be timegated on a weekly basis
- Thanks to PvP buff, you won’t have to farm gear : any gear you wear will be upgraded up to the best ilvl in the game, without ranking locks. This will be timegated like it used to be in the previous expansions, but it won’t be heavily time-consuming.
- There are new seasonal rewards, and the rewards are related to the current patch and its lore.
4-3.5 : Alternatives (edit)
Of course, instead of having buffs that increase your plvl to a new tier, you could also have PvP tokens, that you would need to buy with conquest points. Using a token on a piece of gear would upgrade its plvl to the following tier. Tokens for the 4 first tiers (honor tiers) would be awarded as BG rewards. Tokens for the tiers 5, 6, 7, 8 would be available for purchase at the conquest vendor after you earn certain amounts of conquest points (this could be a quest).
i.e : let's say you have an item with m+15 ilvl. Since its ilvl is m+15, its plvl is m+15 too, but you could use a "challenger" token to upgrade it to heroic plvl.
Or another alternative, instead of unlocking PvP buffs, you unlock job-like recipes and recipe upgrades that increase the plvl of your gear, just like PvP buffs would. It would work like enchanting. The advantage is that these can be tied to the character, just like PvP buffs (and unlike PvP tokens) but they can be awarded for each slots, just like PvP tokens (and unlike PvP buffs). That way, your gear would feel more important than with the PvP buffs. But at the same time, you wouldn't have to buy a new PvP token each time you change a piece of gear.
Also, I just realized gear being an account-wide reward might seem problematic. Why not create heritage-like gear, allowing the alts to immediately catch-up with m+0 ilvl ? And PvE could give the same kind of reward too. If that's gamebreaking then an honor vendor could do too. So basically you would buy m+0 from the honor vendor and its plvl would improve by winning honoconquest levels. And you could improve its ilvl at the conquest vendor.
4-4 : Reforging
Reforging in this system is simple. It works like the seals of fate, except you can't buy them for golds. So, you either buy them with some pve currency or with conquest points. They give you the possibility to reforge 100% of one substat into any other statistic and to swap that statistic any time you want, granted that you're in a resting area.
If you have two reforging tokens, then you can reforge two substats from the piece of gear. Reforged substats increase with ameliorations too.
Reminder : you can also farm m+0 or easy modes until you have the BiS in terms of statistics and they will scale automagically with the PvP buff. But that's no fun, granted, so that's why you can skip that process by buying reforging tokens instead.
This should pretty much solve the problems 1, 2, 3 and 5, and partially problem 6.
Going on with problem 4 and borrowed powers.
4-5 : Borrowed powers
If you guys have watched the PvP summit with Venruki, Stoopz, Savix, Asmongold and Rich Campbell, you might remember the two following things :
On the one hand, they said borrowed powers are not good because it felt like a lot of time invested into something that you’ll have to grind again next xpac, and also because [insert azurite traits and corruptions icons all over the place]
On the other hand, they also said that they wanted the classes to change because they were bored with their own blah blah priest and warriors look so good now etc.
Well, my take is that if a class feels good, don’t touch it. You might just make it worse. But… borrowed powers could actually fulfil this strive for evolution that some players have. So my suggestion is to make borrowed powers more related to your class and to your spec. Remove RNG. Remove passive damage. That’s the big problem of borrowed powers : they are too significant compared to how they change your gameplay.
Borrowed powers should change your decision-making process in combat. They should be balanced to leave a handful of different builds to the player. They shouldn’t be too significant in terms of output damage/healing or in terms of passive. And they should feel tied to your class, IMHO.
Examples : I think the reason why BfA corruptions broke pvp is because they were too much afk-passive damage and didn’t change your gameplay enough, while doing huge damage on RNG procs. I think the reason why Azerite traits were bad was because, again, huge damage and RNG drops. Essences felt good but maybe hard to balanced given the existence of Azerite traits and corruptions.
Finally I feel like trinkets are something to talk about too. PvE trinkets are just bad mechanics. It’s straightforward but this is my opinion. How is it fun to have a trinket that revives you automagically when you die ? How fun is it to have a trinket that deals 10 times more damage than any of your abilities. PvE trinkets feel like cheat-codes. I’m not going to argue that they are bad for PvP : they’re bad for the game altogether.
IMHO, cheat-death trinket, should be a timed countdown. i.e : 10 seconds after pressing your trinket, you gain death immunity for 5 seconds, and instead of dying, your get healed for 20% of your HP.
If you want a big damage trinket, make it give you 100% crit rate during X second, or make it increase your crit damage by 10% all the time. There are tons of fun powers that don’t need to be completely game-breaking. But deleting something on pressing a button is just brainless and fundamentally bad.
Anyways, I think that the borrowed powers should not represent too much of our damage, unless they’re more skill-based and less RNG.
That’s it for borrowed powers. I don’t pretend I could give more feedback about these. Honestly, they look lots of fun and tons of work on the paper (except of the trinkets, they look like the work of an intern), but they didn’t work as expected. We’ve experienced it in BfA, we have given Blizzard lots and lots of feedback, so now they should be able to balance them for PvP too.
By the way BfA was bad for PvP, but the amount of playable content and new mechanics brought into WoW was just amazing. If I was more interested in PvE I would probably have loved BfA.
4-6 : How to make PvP engaging again :
Or how to solve problem 6 :
- SoloQ on a different ladder, don’t match SoloQ and premade, LOL.
- Brawler’s guild for 1v1s
- Open-world pvp zone, with dailies and objectives, like Timeless island
Guess that’s it. Thanks for reading all this, please point out everything unclear, ask me anything, discuss anything, disagree with anything in the comments, I’ll do my best to answer.
edit : Oh by the way I would be completely fine with two separate gears, too (i.e : PvE gear being garbage in PvP and PvP being garbage in PvE) but as I said, this is an attempt at comprimising and finding a solution making everyone happy without too much sacrifices.
UPDATE : https://imgur.com/a/tIeMaPO
Here you can find a diagram of the overall gear balancing in that system, including gear from PvE sources. I made this after the SL changes. Although it is now much less needed than it was inBfA, I still think it's relevant. Every indicated time or ilvl differences in that diagram are just examples (how I would've done it but I'm not competent enough to balance them).
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