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Musings on Fizz and Melee Design
the problem is that fizz depends on landing a max range ult to achieve his only one shot combo, therefore, i think the compensation for losing that reliability needs to be bigger, like maybe buff his short and mid range ult damage (.8 ap short, 1.0 mid, 1.2 max).This is a pretty common point raised here and is very much intended. When there is not an incentive to go for bigger ults, gameplay tends to revert to how it was before (especially at high MMR), where gameplay ends up disappearing (Q -> R into guaranteed one shot comes back again). Fizz' full combo even with mini shark is actually pretty good as far as damage is concerned (3+ AP Ratio + bases or something?). Personally, I specifically bone Yasuo with this combo and wreck him with gank assist, then out roam him with teleport.
One of the goals of the update was to incentivise Fizz to go for more max range ults. We want Fizz to use tricky angles and vision denial to throw fishes from where it is unexpected to help him go for these ults.
Or maybe even help him when he is in melee by adding some dps (if you pop 2 sec. w, the old active comes back for like a couple of second, or the e cd is reduced).Melee Design Philosophy
Especially with the way our design philosophy has evolved over the years, we have been striving to promote more of the "what could the opponent have done better" moments for melee characters (and range too). What this means is finding reasons for a melee character to want to disengage from their target or in other words, reduce reliability - but not so much that the character is nonfunctional.
For Fizz specifically, the idea behind increasing the mark duration from 4 to 6 seconds is trying to achieve this (increase versatility and reduce binary characteristics of his melee pattern) and also one of the reasons Shrieve put the mark there in the first place (so that Fizz doesn't have to always sit on top of his target to succeed). Without this, it means that only Fizz' that are ahead or building tanky can succeed. My thesis is that reliability without gameplay is quite dangerous (and a lot of auto attack bindings fall into this camp - more on this below).
- When Q'ing a target, Fizz splashes a carpet of water behind the target that increases movespeed on trail.
- Mark duration: 6 seconds >>> 10 seconds.
- This allows Fizz to mark a target in a teamfight or skirmish, escape and then come back in for a second pass and pop them.
- However mechanics like this tend to mean Fizz is inescapable when ahead and we would probably need to solve for that.
- Mark duration: 6 >>> 10 or 15 seconds (obviously pressure/stress concerns with this).
- Moving more than 1000 range from a target after mark application increases W damage to a new threshold (mark changes to red or something and does 5x damage).
- Gives Fizz a reason to mark someone and walk away, then come back in later.
Generally speaking, the more a kit's power budget is defined by how well you can stand next to someone, the more binary (feast or famine) they become. This is why in the Fizz rework, the first thing to go was his W active "do extra damage on auto attacks" ability.
The prototypical Xin Zhao example here is - he has a lot of his power budget tied into "my 3rd attack does X". This means he definitively fails when he is behind (he will never be able to get 3rd attacks off), but when he succeeds there is very little gameplay or "I could have done this better against him" from the opponent.
I can understand from the Fizz player's perspective that having more DPS in melee range is what they want (I'm a Fizz player myself). However, reliability is a very dangerous tool for us to use. The thing we actually want is reliability with gameplay - auto attack binding in this sense probably leads to low gameplay, but other things like Yasuo do reliability with gameplay very well: eg. getting Q3 and E'ing through a wave, then EQ'ing -> R is good, because Q3 and dashing are very telegraphed, it has gameplay, you can flash/dash his E and make him waste his Q3.
Great Successes and Sharp Failures vs Fallbacks
My personal design philosophy is sharp failures lead to greater successes (Eg. Warwick ult, new Anivia comboes). Negating failures leads to relatively flat experiences (see Varus Q spam, old Anivia ER). While they can make you feel less bad, they usually make you feel less good too. Some designers prefer camp 2, I prefer camp 1, it's just a personal preference thing and it's not to say either one is good or bad, there are benefits to having both in the game.
E Change and Fizz moving forwards
The E cooldown reduction is the most requested change by Fizz players and is consistently ignored.My opinion on reverting the E cooldown change is that it is used a lot more to escape rather than to kill. The change incurs a large frustration cost and it only really benefits ahead Fizzes. (Behind Fizz is unlikely to ever be able to access this power in a way that is not frustrating. Things like W duration bumped up are ways we can add power that are not as frustrating but disproportionately help behind Fizzes and assist fallback patterns. I also think if we are trying to bump up his in-out pattern, Q or passive are better places to look. Q as a conditional dash is much more cool and carries a lot more gameplay in my opinion.
I think E is in a fine spot right now and post 7.5 changes, I think Fizz will be in a pretty reasonable spot.
Obviously still some work we could do regarding W (I think it is still hard to proc the mark in a lot of cases when you are behind, I'm not going to pretend it is perfect right now and there is still more work we can do in this space. Ideas similar to the two proposed changelists above could carry some merit for future work, but his ult is a very good fall back tool for now - AOE CC and pick).
EDIT: (I know the below section comes off as harsh and unsympathetic, but we saw a lot of problems with the old kit that we felt we could not resolve without major changes - specifically: lack of gameplay in WQR, tank pattern enabling, etc.) So yes, I would contest that Fizz was completely healthy before the rework pretty heavily.
Finally, I think a lot of the claims made here about being non-functional are pretty unfounded (I think most Fizz players play him incorrectly and expect to succeed) and the character is a lot different to play now (you have to play a bit differently to succeed).
Thanks for listening if you made it this far and let me know thoughts.
Under The Lights: Ferrothorn & Cradily (Forest Cup)
The "Under The Lights" series provides some deeper dives on Pokémon of particular interest, ones with potential breakout potential in the ongoing Cup... and into the future. Today, we take a look at two Grasses that are also so much more. Today we feature two returning guests and put them back... under the lights.
Attack: 109 (106 High Stat Product)
Defense: 154 (158 High Stat Product)
HP: 123 (128 High Stat Product)
(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-13-13, 1500 CP, Level 25)
So one of the more important things to talk about with Ferrothorn, before we ever get to any moves or simulations, is the typing. Grass/Steel is a pairing never seen before Ferrothorn (and Ferroseed) and only once after (with one of Gen7's Ultra Beasts). It seems one of the stranger typing combinations, but there is quite a bit these two typings do for each other.
First, to look at the two typings separately:
- Grass is vulberable to quite a bit: Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice, and Poison. It resists Electric, Ground, Water, and other Grass.
- Steel is vulnerable only to Fire, Fighting, and Ground, while resisting Bug, Flying, Ice, Poison (double resistance), Dragon, Fairy, Grass, Normal, Psychic, Rock, and other Steel.
But there are downsides, of course. Grass does nothing to negate Steel's resistance to Fighting. And with both Grass and Steel being weak to Fire... well, Fire is Ferro's mortal enemy, dealing double super effective damage to it. This means that things with Fire fast moves can just farm Ferrothorn down and pocket tons of energy... eight or nine Fire Spins is all it takes.
BUT, you avoid those two, and Ferro feels even tankier than its excellent stats would imply. In the end, it balances those two vulnerabilities against ten resistances: Dragon, Electric, Fairy, Normal, Psychic, Rock, Steel, Water, Poison (Steel's double resistance turning Grass' weakness into a strength here), and just as Steel and Grass double the vulberability to Fire, here is doubles their resistance to other Grasses. Remember that later....
Only other thing to mention before moving on is that, yes, Ferrothorn is quite buky even outside of its many resistances, with top tier Defense and above average HP too. It can take a beating and keep on dishing it back for quite a while.
Okay, that's enough about what kind of punishment Ferrothorn can take. Now, finally, let's see what Ferro can dish out!
Bullet Seed (Grass, 1.67 DPT, 4.33 EPT, 1.5 CD)
Metal Claw (Steel, 2.5 DPT, 3.0 EPT, 1.0 CD)
It shouldn't be a surprise at this point that Bullet Seed was buffed not long ago, going from worthless to one of the best energy generating moves in the game... it is now a Grass clone of Snarl, if that means anything to you.
While I've been recommending building a Ferrothorn since the beginning of the Season, Bullet Seed was SO bad then that my recommendation was typically Metal Claw, but that's not the case anymore. Bullet Seed is quite clearly the way to go now, to power out some of THESE bad boys:
Mirror Shot (Steel, 35 damage, 35 energy, 30% Chance to Decrease Opponent Attack -1 Stage)
Acid Spray (Poison, 20 damage, 50 energy, Decreases Opponent Defense -2 Stages)
Power Whip (Grass, 90 damage, 50 energy)
Thunder (Electric, 100 damage, 60 energy)
Flash Cannon (Steel, 110 damage, 65 energy)
First let's separate the wheat from the chaff. Mirror Shot is arguably necessary on other Pokémon like Magnezone as a bait move and/or best way for them to deal Steel damage. But I'll save you the trouble here... Ferro doesn't need it. With Bullet Seed allowing it to spam its moderately expensive charge moves in efficient time, Ferrothorn just doesn't need a bait move like Mirror Shot.
Ferro is also not a good Acid Sprayer. Not only does it lack STAB (so Spray will hit for particularly pathetic damage), but it A.) is usually best paired with a hard hitting fast move to capitalize on the opponent's nerfed Defense (and Bullet Seed is NOT that kind of fast move), and B.) it prevents Ferro from doing what it does best: smash things with its other charge moves. I mean, Ferro does okay with Spray or Mirror, but neither adds much (if anything) to its performance with its one must-have charge move: Power Whip.
With just Bullet Seed and Power Whip, Ferro takes out every Water except an iffy result versus flying Mantine, plus nearly every Ground (only fiery Camerupt beats Ferro) and Rock (Crustle alone escapes by spamming Bug damage). In other words, with just its Grass moves, Ferrothorn is... well, your typical Grass, beating all the things you'd want a Grass to handle. That's what Power Whip gets you and why it is strictly required in the Forest Cup meta.
So what of the second move? We're left with a choice between on-type Flash Cannon and potential coverage move Thunder. Which is better here? IS one of them clearly better? This decision right here is what I wanted to write about with Ferrothorn... because while nearly everyone (myself included) has recommended Flash Cannon, I think there may indeed be a decent case there for Thunder as well.
Let's start with the popular answer: Flash Cannon. Compared to the all-Grass sim linked above, you'll notice a sizeable leap from a solid 87 wins/59% win percentage to a meta-shaking 109 wins/74% win percentage. I did my customary side-by-side comparison between the results and found, not shockingly, that all of the new wins are either against Bugs (13, including Trashadam, Crustle, Scolipede, and Yanmega) and fellow Grasses (9, including Meganium, Shiftry, Jumpluff, and Celebi). It's a little surprising that ALL new wins are from one of those typings or the other, but not overly so, as Grass moves (like Power Whip) are of course resisted by--you guessed it!--Bugs and Grasses. Wielding Flash Cannon gives Ferrothorn a big neutral damage beatstick to swat aside things that resist Power Whip. And THAT is exactly why Flash Cannon has been the almost universally recommended second move for Ferro in the Forest Cup meta.
So what of Thunder? Is it not the same? Well, there's one key difference: Electric moves are not resisted by Bugs, but they ARE resisted by Grass, meaning a Power Whip/Thunder Ferro can ONLY deal ineffective, resisted damage to other Grasses (aside from things like Jumpluff that have a secondary typing weak to Electric, and therefore take neutral from Thunder). What this means is that Thunder picks up nearly all the same Bug wins that Flash Cannon did (and actually adds two more--Masquerain and Forrettress--that Flash Cannon does NOT normally defeat), the only Grass that Thunder beats that Power Whip alone cannot is Jumpluff, the flying Grass. Meg, Shiftry, Celebi, and all the rest that Flash Cannon won, Thunder cannot replicate.
BUT, there's one more thing going for Thunder that Flash Cannon cannot do: beat Mantine with no ifs, ands, or buts. Even against a #1 IV Mantine, Ferro should have it in the bag. Without Thunder, it is almost certainly going to come out on the losing end, Flash Cannon or no Flash Cannon, as Mantine resists Steel and takes ony neutral from Ferro's Grass moves.
Just for completeness, I did check shieldless and 2v2 shielding, and not much really changes. Flash Cannon tends to get a bunch of Grasses, Thunder continues to be a little better versus Bugs and consistently flyers like Mantine and Yanmega. Just so you don't think I stopped at just 1v1 shield scenarios!
So what can we conclude? Well sometimes, just because the answer is obvious doesn't mean it needs to be drilled into any further. Flash Cannon is more versatile and impactful overall in this meta. Combined with Ferrothorn's double resistance to Grass and neutrality to Bug damage, Flash Cannon allows it to take many of those Pokémon out. But Thunder is a fine move too that has some advantages going for it, and in metas with more Flying types, will likely find itself swapping places in the pecking order with Flash Cannon throughout the tournaments still ahead.
Now, another oddball Grass that I have also advocated for before, going all the way back to the tail end of Season 1....
Attack: 106 (104 High Stat Product)
Defense: 141 (142 High Stat Product)
HP: 140 (146 High Stat Product)
(Highest Stat Product IVs: 0-15-15, 1494 CP, Level 26)
Here, as with Ferrothorn, are the kind of stats we like to see: above average Defense and HP, and lower but passable Attack. Cradily, despite its spindly appearance, is quite bulky!
So now the typing. Rock/Grass is also a very unusual combo, still unique to Cradily (and Lileep) to and all the way through Generation 8. And the two types actually do quite a bit for each other, which is good because they each have five vulnerabilities on their own:
- To refresh, Grass is vulnerable to Bug, Fire, Flying, Ice, and Poison, and resists Electric, Ground, Water, and other Grass.
- Rock is weak to Fighting, Grass, Ground, Steel, and Water damage, while resisting Fire, Flying, Normal, and Poison moves.
Bullet Seed (Grass, 1.67 DPT, 4.33 EPT, 1.5 CD)
Infestation (Bug, 2.0 DPT, 3.67 EPT, 1.5 CD)
Acid (Poison, 3.0 DPT, 2.5 EPT, 1.0 CD)
Bullet Seed is back here, and is again by far Cradily's best fast move now. Not only does the STAB bonus give it about the same damage output as previous best move Infestation, but it blows it away in terms of energy generation too. And Cradily's got some very potent moves to charge up with it....
Grass Knot (Grass, 90 damage, 50 energy)
Stone Edge (Rock, 100 damage, 55 energy)
Bulldoze (Ground, 80 damage, 60 energy)
Bulldoze is still a bit disappointing, despite seemingly giving Cradily an advantage over the format's Electric and Fire types. But it doesn't need it, as it beats the vast majority of Electrics with Grass Knot (a Power Whip clone, by the way), and smacks the Fires with Stone Edge. It IS worth noting that Bulldoze DOES notably give Cradily its most sure path to victory over Magnezone, but that's about ALL it does for Cradily in Forest Cup.
The other moves just simply do a lot more. Cradily needs Grass Knot to maintain proper pressure on Waters, which is mission #1 for any Grass. It needs Stone Edge to give it its unique-for-Grass edge against Fires, beating them all except for Fighters Blaziken, Combusken, Pignite, and Infernape (who all take neutral damage from Edge) and, interestingly, Torkoal, who just manages to tank a Stone Edge and race to its own killing charge move. It can best all of those in different shielding situations, but Blaziken is a persistent problem, one of few areas where Cradily's Rock typing does more harm than good.
Stone Edge does one other good thing: give Cradily a weapon with which to pound on other Grasses. It can outduel fellow rock chucker Tangrowth, speedster Sceptile, and flying Jumpluff, among others. All three of those are particularly problematic for most Grasses to handle, so the fact that Cradily can best them all speaks well to its flexability.
As mentioned before, Cradily handles nearly all Electrics too... but the downside is that it is the most potent Electrics that escape it: Galvantula, Ampharos, and (without Bulldoze) Magnezone. Note, however, that Cradily DOES crush Galvantula with Stone Edge in shieldless and 2v2 shielding scenarios... and that's a bit of a theme. Bug is weak to Rock, so they generally don't enjoy facing Cradily like they do other Grasses. Cradily can consistently overcome notable ones like Scolipede, Crustle, Forretress, and the many Flying Bugs in 0 and 1 shield scenarios. (2 shield gets a little dicier, as the Bug damage coming back starts to add up in prolonged combat... Scolipede, Crustle, and Forretress all win out that way, as an example.)
And speaking of different shielding scenarios, going without shields brings some more Grass wins into the fold (Shiftry and Bellossom, most notably) as compared to the standard 1v1 shielding sim, whereas blowing through both shields is not generally advised, as notable Waters like Azumarill and Whiscash, as well as most of the Grasses, all slip away. Cradily wants to hit hard early and bug out before the enemy has a chance to catch up.
But for today, that's all I got! I am trying to start with some of the most central meta stuff first before branching out more next week and beyond... Galvantula was specifically requested so I will cover that and another Electric or two next time.
Until then, for more tidbits, you can find me on Twitter for near-daily PvP analysis nuggets or Patreon if you're into that sort of thing.
Stay safe out there, Pokéfriends, and see you again soon! And of course, as I know you were likely waiting on throughout the whole article... dilly dilly! 🍻